[Da...] Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 Are you taking about how the engineer defines the tolerance on the print? Tolerance and GD&T callouts are always drive by function of the feature in the assemble process. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Me...] Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. I'm addressing this^^^... and contend that evaluating the position of an elongated hole, that has been derived with the Slot feature, as implemented with Calypso, is incorrect to either standard. I could be wrong regarding the ISO 1101 standard which is why I'm asking, but I can say that it is incorrect to the Y14.5 Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 Are you taking calling it as position to a slot? Slot are called out all the time but they should be a callout for the width and a callout for the length. That isn't incorrect to ISO or Y14.5 if called out this way. If I am understanding your question.Capture1.JPG Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 But in the case of the part I am programming right now It is Profile because of the function.Capture.JPG Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86262 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Me...] Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 The drawing you posted is correct to ASME, and all that is needed to verify conformance of the position control is ensuring that no portion of the slot violates the virtual condition boundary. Using the slot feature with a position characteristic would be incorrect. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 Sorry my wording on the first post wasn't great. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86266 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 In the other case I just go with the engineer doesn't know what he wants. 😃 😃 😃 Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Me...] Posted May 1, 2020 Share Posted May 1, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Glad we were able to clear that up. Would hate for someone coming in here looking for information and get the wrong idea. That's how rumors get started.... 🙂 Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ri...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. I create theoretical Circles or Cylinders. From there you can use modifiers. I do this because many do not understand the formulas and or why its done that way. It provides answers and minimal if any questions. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Don't do that. Width of a slot MMC is not the Length of the slots MMC. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86274 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Me...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Sure you can. See Symmetry Plane and Symmetry point. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86276 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Calypso doesn't let you select MMC on a Slot Feature. Look at other posts it is explained per ASME Y 14.5 Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86278 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Me...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 I'm not talking about a slot feature. I'm talking about using a symmetry plane, which allows MMC and can be used to measure the width and position of a slot. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86280 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 I wonder how it calculates the distance between two planes? For the MMC? In calypso? Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ri...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 [img]https://media.tenor.com/images/8c3e3ca7 ... /tenor.gif[/img] Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86284 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Me...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Yes, the symmetry plane feature would be appropriate when evaluating the position of an open-end slot as depicted in Fig. 7-31 of the 2009 standard. Calypso allows for the MMC / LMC modifier to be applied within the position characteristic. However, the standard only supports the "boundary concept" for a position control applied to an elongated hole as shown in Fig 7-34. Anything done to the contrary could be subject to scrutiny. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 The Problem is when it determines the distance of two planes is the Dim perpendicularity/Parallel to the primary Datum or to the Feature? Also is it using the LSQ or the Minimum feature? Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. That is great Richard Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86290 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ri...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. I believe it's completely different than what you are thinking. It isn't two planes, it is one feature itself. Think of it as the same principle as measuring two circles, and recalling the feature points into a Cylinder. You wind up with one feature with one axis line that is created from all of the measurement points. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 As I am thinking about it more then likely doesn't matter in todays world of CNC controlled machines. The difference would more then likely be negligible. It was more of a Question of how Calypso determines the distance. I know if you use a point to point it is to the base alignment. What one of the 4 does it use? This is where things get hard in the CMM and GD&TCapture.JPG Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86294 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Me...] Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. All of them... Calypso passes the measured points through an algorithm where they get mixed with a blend of 11 herbs and spices that produces the desired result. You have the option to select the type of fit you need. Side note... The LSQ & Tangential distance result within Calypso matches the values calculated by another commercially available fitting software. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86296 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 13, 2020 Share Posted May 13, 2020 Phillip that is great 😃 😃 😃 😃 But I thought only 2 employees at KFC knows the spices. How did Zeiss figure it out? Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ri...] Posted May 14, 2020 Share Posted May 14, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. I am aware, i should have stated for open end slots Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15790-cant-toggle-on-mmc-for-true-position-characteristic/page/2/#findComment-86300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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