A Query for Composite Profile Tolerance

[[Ok...]]

Hello all,

There are 60x Scallops on the part and the first one is Datum C. For the rest of 59x Scallops there is a Composite Surface Profile inquiry on the Blue Print (per ASME Y14.5) as below:
 

Applies 59x Places

SURFACE PROFILE	.0100	A	B	C
	.0050

 

I would like to consult two things to evaluate this on ZEISS Inspect:

1. Shall we "Create Group Element" for all of them to obtain only 1 result or shall we create and obtain 59x seperate results for this item?
2. Is there any chance to enter both tolerance values of upper and lower segments of Composite Profile inquiry on the same Element page or do we have to create the results seperately? We do not see if there is a chance to enter both .0100 and .0050 tolerances at the same time while inspecting a Scallop. If we have to ask for both tolerances seperately, how to create the element for the tolerance of the lower segment?

 

Many thanks in advance.

[[Ch...]]

If you construct you position tolerance than you can find the composite tolerance options:

 

Please have an look to our techguide: ZEISS Quality Tech Guide, too There is an explanation about Composite tolerancing that should answer your questions. In short, it has to construct onto a pattern and due to technical limitation you have to define the PLTZF and the FLTZF parts as individual tolerances.

 

[[Ok...]]

Mr. Schult, thank you for the help and your answer.

We do actually use this selection for Composite Tolerance box while evaluating the Composite Profile (it's profile in this example of us) and then we select;

FRTZF for the Lower Segment of the given (as I indicated above in the topic) Tolerance since it is not related to Datums and only asking the Size and Form of the Scallops. Is it correct?

 

So, as I understand;

• For the upper segment of the composite profile which is related to Datums A, B and C, shall we select Composite Tolerance box all the same?
• For the lower segment, I understand that we have to select Composite Tolerance Box since I can not describe my Composite Inquiry in this Element Box with any other way.
• Lastly, have you ever seen such an application in a BluePrint per ASME Y14.5 that these 59x Scallops are evaluated as a Group and obtaining 1 common result for their Profile?

Many thanks. 

[[Ch...]]

Oh, I must have miss the profile information in your initial post. Sorry for this.

In general you are using PLTZF for the first line of your composite profile and FLTZF for all other. And yes the FLTZF asking only for Size and Form deviation and of course for the location between multiple scallops if you evaluating them together.

If you have an composite profile or a composite position you have to split you tolerance definition into multiple tolerance (due to the fact that we cannot provide multiple results in one tolerance).  That means you choose PLTZF for the first line and FLTZF for all following line(s) of the Composite Profile. If you have a "normal" (i.e. a non-composite tolerance) you have to un-check the use composite tolerance checkbox.

Regarding your last question regarding the real world application I must admit that I have no mechanical or measuring engineering background and I am not a member of the Sales or Support department. To make things short I have limit contact to real world application and my knowledge of the standard is more theoretically so I cannot answer your question. Sorry for this.

Best regards

Christoph Schult

[[TI...]]

Your drawing may say this is a composite profile, it is not acting like a composite profile, b/c there are no datums in the FRTZF. Many times with turned parts, even with a single datum in the second callout, it still isn't a pure composite profile.  I'm happy to have this conversation in the general section if anyone disagrees.

Also, this is a pattern feature so it technically is 1 check for the top check with Datums, and 1 check for the bottom check with no Datums. All features should be measured in the same ABC setup(Datum Structure/Coordinate System) and pass...and then they should be measured without datums, but together as a pattern to pass the no datum callout.....The biggest mistake you could make is measure all 60 surfaces independently with separate checks with no datums...b/c at that point they don't relate to each other in proximity and orientation....they are a pattern so you should measure them as one functional unit.

I would select all 60 surfaces and do a 1 profile check to ABC, and then do a 2nd check using all surfaces to no Datums NOT USING composite, b/c this is NOT a composite callout.  If you disagree, then just do the same thing I'm describing, but use the composite check marks in the software, you will find you will get the same results b/c there are no datums in the second control frame so it doesn't matter if you use composite or not.  There is no need to create a group element, while they may be 60 separate surfaces, they are basically one surface in different areas on the part.

 

The purpose of composite profile and position in the second FCF(feature control frame) is to release the features from location to the datums, BUT still make them maintain orientation to said datums. Since there are no datums, it is not a real composite control.

 

 

Edited yesterday at 03:04 AM