Navigator: Yes or No?

[[To...]]

This post won't mean much to users with XXT sensors but I know there are fair amount of you with active sensors.  What is the general opinion of Navigator?  Do you rely on Navigator 100% of the time?  What are the pros and cons?  How do you apply Navigator philosophy to planes and lines?  Do Navigator strategies comply with the suggested filter settings, i.e. minimum number of points.  

[[Cl...]]

I was told that that this function is for very large parts?

[[To...]]

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That was always my understanding but now I have larger round parts.

[[Ch...]]

It only activates for cylindrical parts is my understanding.  I'll need to test this, but it doesn't activate for planes or lines does it?

I really don't use it.  Not that I don't like it, but it makes correlating with suppliers difficult.  I want to know exactly how fast, how many points, and what angle range I'm using. 

The following would just make me sound silly:

Supplier: "What's your measurement strategy for this circle"

Me: "The optimum strategy"

Supplier: "Ok, but how many points"

Me: "The optimum number of points"

Supplier: "Ummm, Ok, but how many do you want us to use?"

Me: "Consider your evaluation settings, diameter of feature, weight of stylus, rigidity of stylus, and type of qualification, then do a proprietary calculation; There you will find the optimum."

Supplier: "Can't you just tell us how many points and how fast?"

[[Th...]]

I think Navigator also has worse repeatability than the cookbook values for active heads, so I would only bother using it if I'm really short on time and have a wide enough tolerance band that the measurement variance isn't an issue.

[[Ma...]]

I don’t use it much anymore, I used to but trust it but I took another path. I run the part, features/ characteristics set to the Cookbook, then increase the speed slowly, if needed, until I get an unsuitable variation from my slower speed. In some shops speed and throughput are the focus, but accuracy should prevail. I’m willing to speed it up a little but won’t sacrifice accuracy over speed.

[[Ma...]]

We are not using it, but i would imagine when you want to reduce measuring time, that you will tryout where you can speed up.

[[Je...]]

I use Navigator on our small parts (they´re all small) only at cylinders and circles, only with big tolerances, and only while tangential probing for speed and angle range. I set the number of points by myself, to make sure, that my filters fit

Edited March 20

[[Pa...]]

It costs a person's salary and adds ambiguity.  Not a fan.

[[Da...]]

I've used it in the past but not so much anymore.  Every time I use the navigator function I see crazy high runout values on cylinders which is obviously in error since those runout errors disappear when I turn off navigator and re-measure.  Not sure if it's something I'm doing wrong on my end when using navigator but there's no question about results when I don't use it so I just leave navigator turned off.

[[Ow...]]

Navigator is like my Ford Pro Trailer Backup Assist option on my truck, it cost more and sounds cool, but I don't trust it.

@ Mark Boucher, is there a simple switch or drop down menu to have features/characteristics automatically activate the Cookbook recommended values for strategy and evaluation?

 

[[Ri...]]

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 Resources - Variable Strategy Assignment. But it will only show a "recipe" if it is valid. 

 

[[Ri...]]

The cookbook is a great resource, but I'm starting to question the filters that it suggests. After looking at ANSI B89.3.1 I don't think what is suggested by Zeiss is valid. It is most likely acceptable for general tolerances, but tight diameters/roundness it is rejecting what should be acceptable parts. 

[[Th...]]

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This reminded me of a presentation-format PDF about roundness filters I got from somewhere like 7 years ago. It shows the same size bucket UPR suggestions we seen in the cookbook as coming from ISO 12180-2, which is for cylindricity. It then cites ISO 12181-2 on the next page, for roundness of circles, where it gives the UPR value as πd/0.8 (where d is certainly going to be in mm). I don't have either of these standards so I can't see this in context, though.

[[Ri...]]

Well the ISO spec gets confusing because it requires a minimum diameter to probe radius value for each UPR used. 

 

 

But I'm not aware of anywhere in this standard that says to actually use this specific UPR for this range of diameter. At least the ANSI spec says that unless otherwise specified on the drawing the default UPR should be 50. 

 

 

I had a "discussion" with  Chat GPT regarding this. Here are the main notes for the specific diameter I was looking at. 

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[[Ow...]]

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Thanks for replying Richard, 

I'm so far removed from Calypso daily use, I should visit more often to learn newer capabilities.

Regarding the cookbook strategies, I've had to alter the filters and strategies as well to get good results, if I remember correctly, mostly on cylindricity .

[[To...]]

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 Does the probe diameter listed above not fall in line with cookbook?

 

The table above is in line with the cookbook with the following exception.  Calypso requires 7 points per undulation, which I believe is pretty standard.  The cookbook produces 8 point per undulation, which is ok.  I overheard someone say, "Zeiss gives you an extra one just in case a point was an outlier".  Still sounds hokey to me.  I always said, "more points is ok".  If I am not mistaken, the cookbook also calculates 8 points per wavelength.  I do remember one time at an AE conference at Zeiss, Alisha Andersen got very animated when Jim York stated using 21 points per wavelength was needed in his presentation, or something along those lines.  Alisha had a huge grin on her face. The room was laughing out loud.  Sorry Alisha.

 

Also, in my 2nd BASIC Calypso class, the instructor JG, trained us to use the filter/outlier settings in Save/Load Defaults. He said, "just check all 12 of the checkboxes with their default settings."  This applies filters/outliers to every characteristic automatically. He suggested that using filters and outliers even if the settings were not optimized, it was still better than not using them at all.

Edited 23 hours ago

[[Ri...]]

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 No. The cookbook does not follow the d:r rule per the ISO spec in most cases. In addition, it makes no note of the d:r rule. 

According to the ISO spec you would actually need to use a 1mm stylus for a 251mm diameter, and then scale up from there. 

Having said all of that, the ISO spec still never says that you should use; it just specifies requirements for whichever one you do use. 

In addition, I did notice that the ISO spec requirements that I showed was for Longwave-pass which I wouldn't think you should use Longwave-pass filters for a roundness evaluation. 

I will also note that per NIST, they only use the 50UPR when certifying ring gages (regardless of size).......