[Ke...] Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 For this simplified example - Runout of the Bore to Datum B (plane) My first thought is: DRF is incomplete. It needs a diametric "center point", to rotate around. My second thought is: If I measure the entire Bore, then I could report Perpendicularity of the Bore to datum B. Any other thoughts/ideas? Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ri...] Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 The way that it is drawn is incorrect. It isn't Radial Runout because the Datum is Perpendicular not Coaxial, and it isn't Axial Runout because the feature isn't a Plane it is a Cylinder. It could be Axial Runout if you flipped the Datum and feature. Either they meant two things, Perpendicularity, or Radial Runout and they forgot the Coaxial Datum. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[To...] Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Please explain... Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86548 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Cl...] Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86550 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[To...] Posted May 7, 2020 Share Posted May 7, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Doh nevermind.... Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86552 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 With runout you are just checking roundness(form). The better call is total runout. with Total runout you are checking perpendicularity and roundness(form) at the same time. Why you would need to I have no idea. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Runout is one of those callouts that really shouldn't be used. It was easy to check with centers to center and Air Rotatory tables. In almost every case controlling Form and Location at the same time makes no sense. They should have separate requirements.Capture.JPG Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86556 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[An...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Searching for the "Center Point" by respecting the "Minimum Condition". (translatory fit) It's similar to "Roundness with regard to RAME"Contribution_08_05_2020.pdf Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86558 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ri...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. It is the form in-conjunction with the location. You can have perfect roundness, but if the position of the two centers is off, the runout will be out-of-spec. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ri...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. It depends on the field and application. In the gear world, runout is one of the most important characteristics of the inspection. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[SH...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. "Runout is one of those callouts that really shouldn't be used." Runout is one of the prime tool used by design engineers ,while balancing a rotating mass. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86564 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[To...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Aren't you including location, too? For example, if the form and orientation are perfect, any deviation would be location, right? Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[To...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. I hope you're not saying this is bogus? I'm just kidding..... Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86568 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ia...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. That's a real hot take. Skip Bayless would be proud. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ke...] Posted May 8, 2020 Author Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. This can be said, without saying this: Please sign in to view this quote. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86572 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[SH...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Ok, l have no intention to hurt anyone. Just told a fact. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ke...] Posted May 8, 2020 Author Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Sure, sure... Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86576 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ri...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 We are on fire today. Lol. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86578 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Me...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. I saw this hours ago and I would add that most of us who has been in the forum for the past 10 years can agree that this is simply a troll looking to get a rise out of the forum, right? Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86580 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Me...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. I've worked with Mechanical Engineers my entire life, 98% of them had/have ZERO GD&T training. That number could be 100% if we count the kids coming out of school today. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86582 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[SH...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. GD&T is the integral part of mechanical engineering, as far as mechanical engineers are concerned they do not require any special training ,they will learn it accidentally....... Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86584 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Ke...] Posted May 8, 2020 Author Share Posted May 8, 2020 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86586 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[De...] Posted May 8, 2020 Share Posted May 8, 2020 Engineers are experts in GD&T .. boy how I wish that were true. In my experience the majority of issues that are caused in manufacturing is due to that statement not being true. I can't believe how many times an engineer has told me when speaking of profile of 0.010 to A B C that "Oh thats the same as plus or minus 0.010" - Not even plus or minus 0.005 but plus or minus 0.010 mind you (thats not even considering the relationship to datums being completely disregarded by the engineer). In my opinion most engineers are far more focused on the function of the part and see issues with definitions on drawings as being the last thing they are concerned about. Due to that drawings end up being created with incorrect call outs, and then when you speak to the engineer they just say "Well of course that is not what I meant". There is a big difference between an engineer understanding the considerations necessary to make a functional product and a correctly drawn print. Oh and as to the original question, I think it should have been true position and then had the roundness callout. True position would control the axis of the part perpendicular to the face which seem like the actual intent of the call out shown. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86588 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[An...] Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 Envelope and refinement. See attached.Contribution_09_05_2020.pdf Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86590 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[Da...] Posted May 9, 2020 Share Posted May 9, 2020 Please sign in to view this quote. Why I say that is that Form is independent of location. Only in Gears and Splines is Form tide to location. In bearing the roundness of the bearing press fit has nothing to do with allowed misalignment. Making runout the wrong callout. Link to comment https://qualityforum.zeiss.com/topic/15816-runout-circle-to-plane/#findComment-86592 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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